Linked from http://www.elitetaekwondousa.com
Did taekwondo have a robust close quarters combat system and eventually lose this ability? Some will say when taekwondo was closer to Shotokan Karate the answer is yes.
You may be surprised to learn that there are actually more hand techniques in taekwondo than leg strikes. Pages 162 – 163 of Tedeschi’s book lists them: 62 hand and elbow strikes (combined) compared to 48 kicks (standing, jumping, and from the ground).
Since achieving my 1st dan in taekwondo back in 2008 I have studied three close quarters systems. A formal Chin Na program, Praying Mantis Kung Fu (all ranges but ground), and my current hybrid system that has elements of Wing Chun, not to mention elements from other close quarters arts.
So over the weekend I reviewed a few of the higher taekwondo forms including Taegeuk Pal Jang. I reached a point in the form that reminded me of something I am learning in bastardized Wing Chin: bong sau. We’ll come back to bong sau in a second. First the form:
(at 45 seconds)
The sequence I’m referring to is the knife edge block at 45 seconds followed by a reverse elbow and backfist. In bastardized Wing Chun we spend a lot of time with an arm deflection called bong sau. From bong you trap the deflected arm with your free hand and then backfist. Here’s bong sau. Note at 1:49 the bong sau and at 1:54 he grabs with the opposite hand. The only thing he does not do is the backfist.
I’ve had two runs in taekwondo and something that every instructor said is this: “Every block is also a strike.” I get that. Still, if you look at the Pal Jang video that reverse elbow could also be re-interpreted as a soft block (or bong) followed by a grab and backfist!
Related: During taekwondo run number one I had an instructor tell me that many devastating techniques are still in taekwondo, you just have to look for them. Years later after asking why we don’t practice low kicks I was told by another instructor that “if you can kick high you can kick low.”
I’m sorry but it’s been my experience that having to look for the devastating techniques on your own generally does not work. An example of this problem would be one of the few times I got to practice low kicks with one of my later taekwondo instructors. At first we struggled to just get the low kick right. As the drilled progressed we adjusted, however, our kicks started to slowly creep up–this due to years of practicing kicks that were midsection or higher! We were conditioned to kick high and it showed. I am certain that this same conditioning for mostly medium to long range combat would show up in a bad way, when trying to tease out close quarter techniques on the street.
Yes, I know that many taekwondo schools incorporate close quarter elements from systems like hapkido, judo, and traditional karate. In fact, my last school did. Still, I can’t help but wonder why much of the form bunkai is not practiced. Or, perhaps, the correct answer is no longer practiced or never was?
One last thing: Go back to the Pal Jang video and look at the grab and uppercut that starts at 16 seconds. Look how stylized the technique is for show. Also note how slow it is. In Mantis forms we practiced all sorts of grabs or traps that were followed by a long fist upper cut (i.e. basically shoots out more than a regular uppercut). The difference is that we actually mimicked the grab, did it at full speed, and also practiced the technique again in two person fighting sets. In every demonstration of Pal Jang that I’ve ever seen the grab is demonstrated with closed fists. That is, you don’t mimic the actual grab and just proceed as if you already have grabbed the attacker.
There are some things in the Taeguek forms that make good sense. However, since becoming somewhat of a martial arts gypsy, there are just as many things that make me scratch my head. Perhaps bunkai still exists in those schools that practice the older forms? I just don’t know.
-BCP
My teacher says the same. He studied Shotokan, then Chung Do Kwan, and now Goju, and believes that much of the TKD is misunderstood. Maybe even, never understood.
I can’t really speak to TKD, but I did have a year or so studying karate under a good friend of mine. Even in the kids class, he spent a lot of time exploring bunkai from the kata we were learning.
It’s even more interesting since I’ve started teaching him the kali I know, and we’re finding similar movements in some of the higher kata from his karate style. I’m now a big believer in bunkai, but if your instructor doesn’t spend time showing you how to explore the kata, then you’ll probably never find it. It’s similar to your high kicks example. Saying it’s there is all well and good, but if you never put in the time actually practicing it, then it might as well not be there.
There’s been some excellent work on applications of taekwondo patterns: “Ch’ang Hon Taekwon-Do Hae Sul” by Stuart Anslow (for ITF patterns), and “The Taeguk Cipher” by Simon John O’Neill (for WTF). Beyond that, there’s not much that’s useful.
I don’t meet many taekwondo stylists of any rank who give much thought to the meaning behind the forms they practice. I’m acquainted with several in my town (besides me), including Koreans who graduated from Yong-In U. (the premier Korean MA program). They all look at me blankly, then say some variant of “We practice patterns for rank advancement,” then change the subject.
Maybe it’s because of the shift in orientation of many in the TKD community from traditional practice to a sport orientation since the 1970s. A sport martial artist tends to concentrate most on the tools that will help them win competitions. For those who even bother with pattern competition, it’s about looking good rather than utility. It’s really sad, because there’s so much good stuff in all the various pattern sets.
Another factor to remember is that the pattern sets as they exist today were never really designed to capture the essence of personal protection the way the Okinawan and Chinese patterns were. Their goal was to capture the essence of the physical skill level required for each geup/dan rank. To elaborate on why this is so would make this comment too long…I’ve been thinking about writing a blog post along these lines, though, and may work it into my post queue.
Regards,
Craig
Martial Arts Spectrum
Nardalee and chops,
Yes, that’s what is sorta suspected.
Craig,
Agreed on the purpose behind the forms. I think that’s why my old school–and most other TKD schools–get at self-defense mostly from Hapkido and Judo techniques. Granted, you still practice the movements within the forms so there is that. However there’s a whole segment of application that is lost or was never found to begin with!
Rob:
It’s really sad to talk to talk to a TKD student, even an occasional “master,” who hasn’t a clue that the patterns contain anything other than strikes and kicks.
For example, if your hands touch any point on your body while executing a pattern movement, it’s usually a euphemism for a lock, trap, or throw, or a set-up for one of those. If you look at the patterns with that in mind, especially the Ch’ang Hon patterns, you see these kinds of moves all over the place.
The implication is that all the locks, traps, and throws you need (at least those required by TKD’s tactical sensibilities) are right there in the patterns. And yet so many TKD instructors feel they have to import hapkido to address the in-fighting range. I think it’s because, as you say, they have no idea how to get the same information out of the patterns.
Craig
I actually never knew there were more hand techniques in taekwondo than leg strikes. I would have never assumed this but sitting down thinking about it I can see that. Thanks for the new understanding and again great post!
Craig –
I agree. Earlier iterations may have had it. Most now don’t. Those later forms may well have been designed without them in mind. I’m not sure. One person I know who likely covers this would be Collin Wee. I may have to get him to chime in on this. I went through my black belt journal and omitted something. My former system borrowed many of it’s self-defense techniques from judo, hapkido, AND traditional karate. We had to learn 44 total for first dan. Even then, they did not call the technique by the arts’ name. Rather, they were just numbered. Now when I look at those arts I sometimes see things I remember but I had no idea it had a name!
MMA Books -
Indeed there are. The problem is the emphasis on taekwondo kicking in most schools. BTW Marc Tedesci’s book on taekwondo is the best book on taekwondo I’ve ever read period. It weighs in at over 800 pages, covers all styles, and all techniques. He also wrote a similar book on hapkido which is just as fine.
I have to echo MMA Books’ sentiment. I openly admit my ignorance of the other arts, but since finding this blog – on a search for Shat-Fu no less – and spending way too much time here and at the links in Bob’s blogroll, and then the blogroll for those excellent sites, I’ve had my eyes opened. And, I just want to say thanks for that.
And since the commenting on my blog is all fubar: Normally I’d say live and let live, Bob. But put some pants on.
Stefan,
The fact that you found my blog using the keyword “Shat-fu” makes me a very happy man. My service to the Internet martial arts community is now complete.
As for my blogroll, well, it’s only half the picture.
As most people know, TKD is largely based on Karate. What’s not quite so well known is that Karate was diliberately “dumbed down”. The original Okinawan Karate contained all sorts of throws, strangles, pressure points, locks, etc., etc.
However, when it was introduced into the Okinawan school system in the late 1800′s they dumbed it down so that the school kids would not hurt each other in brawls.
When Funikoshi took Karate to Japan, the country was modernizing very fast and the Japanese were begining to see martial arts as obsolete except for physical and character development. The dumbing down continued.
After WWII, the Americans banned martial arts in Japan. In order to be allowed to train, the Japanese made the case that it was more for self development than combat. That’s when all the traditional weapons (bo, sai, tonfa, etc) had to be dropped.
No offence to TKD exponents, but it would have been the dumbed down version that General Choi would have learned. Most Japanese Karate is dumbed down and TKD is based on a dumbed martial art. Then both martial arts got heavily into sports.
I think though that when it comes to bunkai, Karateka usually have the advantage, because we look back to Okinawa as our roots, hence look at how they did bunkai. TKD people often tend to only look at the history of their art since its inception in Korea and see their Karate roots as something different and separate. There are some notable exceptions (like Stuart Anslow mentioned above), but the Koreans obviously wanted to create a separate identy (especially considering Japanese WWII attrocities).
However, much research has gone into this area. People above have mentioned above how Hapkido, Karate and Judo influencing TKD. Well Aikido, JuJutsu, Kung Fu and others have influnced Karate understanding. Many Karate bunkai courses (in the UK at least) are also routinely attended by TKD people and the two arts are now moving forward together.
I’m a stong believer that people can work out bunkai for themselves and indeed should (as what suits one person may not suit another). But you must have some base knowledge to start with. Once you start learning, you can read across to other similar moves. But you must have the base knowledge to read across from. When you become reasonably proficient, you can work out a lot for yourself. That’s why I do a free video course on how to become good at bunkai from my website.
Hi Charlie,
Thanks for weighing in on this — your insights are very valuable to the conversation!
-BCP
Thank you Bob, that’s appreciated.
I note that you’ve actually just signed up for my free course; thank you, I’m flattered.
Please let me know what you think!
I will! I still practice my taekwondo forms. Now that I’m exposed to other arts I’ve already started to notice things. Maybe your course will refine me.
Well as Karate and its derivatives have been dumbed down, you are already doing part of what I recommend people do. That is to look at other arts and see what you can read across and bring back into your own art. Too many people look at other arts and all they think about is how they can show that their own art is better. You don’t learn with that attitude and it is not how the original masters trained. It was quite common in the past for people to train under several masters, so they did not restrict themselves to a “style”. They just learnt where they could.
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A Google search lead me to Mr. Patterson’s article. I am a first dan blackbelt in Kukkiwon TKD. I related to Mr. Patterson’s experience of learning applications in other martial arts, and his desire to find similar applications in TKD.
Recently I enrolled in a Okinawan Karate school so I could sweat a little during my lunch breaks. Immediately I was elated to learn all these applications! Not only did the Karate sensei show me many of the same blocks and kicks as I had learned in TKD, but he actually put someone in front of me to throw punches while I blocked them, or conversely to block punches as I threw them. This was so cool – to actually apply the blocks and strikes I had only thrown at the air in the past.
We then moved on to forms or kata. The first form I learned is called kihon kata which is identical in steps and directions to kicho. However, the instructor then (strtegically) placed other students around me who would throw kicks and punches that were miraculously deflected as I performed subsets of the kata. Coolest thing ever!
Now I remain a TKD enthusiast. I consider my master one of my closest friends. I am a few months away from testing for my second dan, and I help out often with leading classes. I was excited to approach my master to talk about learning the applications of the poomse. He informed me that his master (who is well respected by Kukkikwon and well known in my area) had not taught the applications, and so my master only knew little insights he gleaned from his own training. Bummer.
So I turned to the Internet and found The Taegeuk Cipher as mentioned in Mr. Willitis’ comment. This book is so dead-on to what I was looking for. In photo form it shows a couple moves in the form, then in a series of photos attempts to show those same moves while facing an opponent. My hopes were high as those first 2 photos exactly matched the poomse as I learned them, but then I was let down as the following photos were so small and dark that I could not see where all the hands went. Also, there is no indication of what photos depict which instructions, so I just could not follow. I hoped some kind soul on YouTube might have videoed these steps, but no luck.
So here I am back on the Internet looking for the applications. While it is somewhat a relief to see others talking this lack of application in TKD, I am still dismayed. My master has agreed to look at this Taegeuk Cipher with me and see if we can figure out what is going on. But in general I am discouraged by this omission in the TKD training.
Anyway, that is just my 2 cents. Thanks for letting me chime-in on your thread!
Steve
Hi Steve –
Thanks for weighing in. I would have likely stuck around for my second dan but my instructor ended up going back to graduate school and closing our school. Logistically it was too much pain to train at a school in the area that was affiliated with our accrediting body. My age in relation to some of TKD’s more acrobatic kicks also had something to do with it.
Regardless, I still practice my forms and some of the techniques. There is a core of material I learned in TKD that is very useful. Also, it was a really good experience.
That having been noted, TKD also has gaps as do all martial arts. When I point these out I do not do so to insult. However it’s inevitable that some take offense. Anyhow, it’s cool that you are exploring!
One of my past instructors also studies aikido. At my current MMA-laden school we have a TKD black belt that visits weekly to train too. So seeking out other martial arts experience is quite common. As sabum tells me, it enhances his tae kwon do.
As with any art, it’s down to the teacher. Here’s a guy who teaches TKD in Wells, UK and his applications are great (better than many Karate teachers – and I’m a Karate guy). I believe that he has also trained with Karate people like Iain Abernethy, but nevertheless he has incorporated it into his own TKD teachings and think he does a good job. Enjoy:
Thanks for that Charlie!
You’re welcome. Gives a whole new perspective doesn’t it.
Yeah it does. Sabum V.1 was open to exploration. He dabbled in Shotokan and Judo, had a brown in hapkido, and last I had heard was pursuing his black belt in aikido.
So you are correct: There are lots of tae kwon do teachers who are on the bunkai path.
Thanks for that video link – that was very cool! Have you found other videos by this demonstrator – or similar?
It is very exciting to me to see the TKD “moves” applied. I am finding that learning these applications improves my poomsae; as I do the steps, I am better able to visualize an attacker which in turn motivates my speed and form.