My last Martial Arts News garnered some interesting hate e-mail. It was a combination of Martial Development’s post on Brazilian Jiu-jitsu’s effectiveness for street self-defense, and at least one of the comments that I left in my post. (Chris always gets me in trouble!)
I think ANY ground wrestling art that emphasizes staying on the ground is 2nd choice in a street setting — that’s just my personal opinion based on the fours years I spent working in prison. You need some ground (enough to enable you to get up!) but you also need something that works standing. I saw too many inmates (and a couple guards too) get bum-rushed in prison. Once the defender was on the ground they’d just swarm the guy on the ground and put the boots to him until we broke it up. – Bob Patterson
“Roy” from Ohio totally had an MMA flame out on me! He and at least two others commented that you can be swarmed on the street standing up and that standing up is no different than finishing an opponent on the ground. Roy also claims to have a brown belt in BJJ and actually challenged me to my first-ever cage match!
First, let’s take care of the challenge. Roy — I’d be happy to compete with you in the cage. However, the only way I’ll do it is if I can bring my tactical baton. If you are open to that stipulation then I’ll consider your challenge with all the seriousness it deserves. I’ll also warn you that in a true fight (not a sport MMA competition) I personally believe that there is no such thing as “dirty fighting”. So I’m not above using psychological warfare and our bout just may go something like this:
I’ll let you figure out if I’m on the top or on the bottom.
Now for the second part of Roy’s comment. Roy, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Standing up IS different than going to the ground in a street setting. Yes, you can get swarmed standing up. Yes, again that you can even get pinned against an obstacle or tied up in a standing clinch while others beat on you. This is all true. However, the one thing you can’t do on the ground is “stick-and-move”. Period.
I suspect the fellow in the video had training in boxing. Note how he sticks, moves, and keeps on standing? If he had went to the ground in this particular situation he’d be done. Period.
Back in the long-since-gone prison days I saw many groups of inmates who specifically tried to get their victim on the ground. Why? Because it was easier to put the boots to him! This even happened to one correctional officer who had boxed and who had also wrestled in college. He ended up with a separated shoulder and ruptured testicle. Granted, he did put one of the inmates in the hospital but were it not for other officers saving the day, he admitted that he was about done for. My point is that if you end up on the ground in a street setting you probably want to get back up and quick! Especially if there is more than one attacker.
The other point I made in my MA News post is what I call the “MMA mentality” that mostly seems to promote violence as the first choice. Take a look at the hilljack cheeseburger video. At about 1:46 hilljack approaches Mr. BJJ in a threatening manner. Before hilljack can do anything Mr. BJJ takes him to the ground.
Now perhaps from a combat perspective this makes perfect sense. But from a get-your-ass-sued perspective it does not. First, Mr. BJJ eggs the hilljack on all throughout the video. How about de-escalating the hilljack? Maybe give him your cheeseburger or offer to buy him some underpants? Better still, engage him in conversation while someone calls the cops!
Basically Mr. BJJ makes a bad situation worse by shooting his mouth off. Moreover, I’m not even sure he could claim self-defense because he DID strike the first blow (or tackle).
Another misconception that I need to address: no, I do not think that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu sucks for self-defense. I repeat: “I think ANY ground wrestling/grappling art that emphasizes staying on the ground is 2nd choice in a street setting.” Nor do I think that MMA sucks for self-defense. In fact, any average MMA fighter could “stick-and-move” as well (or better!) than the guy in the above video.
Related to this are three posts by fellow martial arts bloggers. The first addresses why I think traditional martial arts offer something that is being lost in “Ultimate Fighting”.
If you learn nothing from those traditional systems, learn that etiquette, and the world will definitely be a better place for all of us who live in it.
The second post gives BJJ practitioners something to consider.
If BJJ students think about how they can adapt the techniques they learn, for the street, they shall find that they will be able to defend themselves very well from the clinch and when on the ground.
Finally, the third example underscores what I’m ranting about!
In the video below, I demonstrate a few different applications of Can-ryu ground defense concepts.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have a cage match to prepare for!
-BCP
Just my two cents.
I read your last post and I’ll chip in by saying it all depends on the situation.
I was in a class taught by Robert Koga Sensei, inventor of the “Koga System” – a non violent system taught to law enforcement. I remember him mentioned several stories where martial experts were caught in compromising situations where they had to utilize skills/moves that were not covered in their training.
My sense from the two times that I’ve training with him is that it’s all being aware of your surroundings and situation.
For example I’m personally scared of coming up against someone who’ll go for my legs rather than my center since we don’t cover that much in Aikido class. Another would be had I been in the situation shown in the cheeseburger video, I would probably bad mouth Mr. Hillbilly himself (I know shame on me as an Aikidoka).
Will I be prepared for those situations as said? I don’t know – and I prefer it that way. Each situation is different and will yield a different result.
In other words (for all the MMA peeps out there): The UFC ring only happens in one place – the UFC ring. The punk on the street is not going to take your pride, your medal, and some of your blood – he’s probably going to take one or the combination of:
1. Your wallet/valuables.
2. Your lady (or your man if you’re a lady)
3. Your life.
He challenged you to a duel, to prove BJJ is good for self-defense? All because I wrote that combat is not the same thing as self-defense? Gee whiz.
P.S. That video link doesn’t work unless you are signed in to Youtube. But this one will.
Wow, automatic video embed?! That’s classy stuff.
Chirs – Thanks for the dead link catch! I’ve updated the post to include the Texas Cheeseburger Beat-down!
As for Roy, well, every now and again I get an angry e-mail from readers. Most I ignore. However I’ve never been challenged to a cage match before so I thought it worth noting!
Andrew -
All good points. Especially the part about staying calm while some knucklehead drops the F-bomb at you while wigging out over a cheeseburger!
Hi Bob
It’s interesting how people get carried away with criticism, knee-jerk reactions seem to be the standard response. A few observations.
1. The bloke with the beard, imo, doesn’t really do a lot wrong in terms of escalation. The hillbilly tubster is a being unreasonable, to say the least, and deserves a little stick. As Andrew intimates it’d be difficult not to provide some form of errr…. retort. Perhaps the best approach, in self-protection terms is that of the black bloke who ignores and continues with his mobile phone.
2. I think BJJ bloke can claim self-defence as the hilllbilly’s ‘threatening manner’ involves offering to ‘whup’ BJJ bloke several times, and his cheeseburger too, I believe, before he charges toward him with bad intention. I think he could rightfully claim that he feared for his safety at that point. Dumping the fat bloke on his arse was kind in the circumstances a punch on the move would’ve been less kind.
3. the ‘stick and move’ YOUTUBE clip is THE definitive example of a street fight where thise tactic works in textbook fashion. And makes your point excellently
4. MMA gets a bit of a bad rap in terms of it’s suitability on ‘the street’. ELSEWHERE, not here, I’ve seen it pretty much written off, which is daft because so many elements are transferable, not least the ‘stick and move’ tactic you refer to. The ability to prevent a fight going to ground is a tactic which many fighters HAVE to adopt, and so many will train for this. This aspect is often omitted by critics and obviously transfers to the street.
5. The ‘violence first’ comments are valid.
Hi Jon,
Thanks for the feedback. My responses by your numbers!
1. Whether or not I would have kept my yap shut or tried to de-escalate is up in the air. I’m so far removed from the prison days that I may have lost the patience. Anyhow I’ll give you this point.
2. This is debatable — especially in the US where claiming self-defense varies. Now if BJJ would have waited for Hilljack to throw the first punch he’d definitely have a claim. Being verbally obnoxious and threatening does not necessarily give you the right to lay hands on someone.
3. It is a good example and one of my favorites. However, that guy would have been done if they had gotten him on the ground. Another nod to MMA: Some MMA fighters have good skill in getting back up quickly after having been taken down.
4. MMA has a lot of street application. From stick-and-move to the standing clinch, being pinned against objects (similar to the cage wall) and ground. As long as the MMA person (or any martial arts style) realizes that it’s not going to be like a competition where someone taps.
5. I know that not all MMA types take on that “kick your ass mentality”. However, just watch any UFC and see what message is being promoted.
Hi Bob
Watched it again and I still think BJJ bloke’s action can be self-defence. Over here the important aspect is using ‘reasonable force’, in this instance he clearly did. He felt sufficiently threatened as the chubby fool rushed him to shoot and takedown the fool and half-heartedly control him on the floor. Well within his rights I’d say. I always thought in America you were allowed to do more than us, but I can’t be sure.
I agree witht he UFC comment, there’s an element of the WWE about it in regards of the trash talking, which is inappropriate. IN fact, it’s not all trash-talking, just the stuff like Tyson’s “I’m gonna eat your babies” type stuff. Lesnar is very guilty of this, as are others.
But on the flip side there are plenty of very sporting fighters, GSP springs to mind. It’s not universal, but I agree the WWE element is inappropriate given that the fight in the UFC is as close to real as there is nowadays, WWE style wrestling is nothing like fighting.
Hi Jon –
You got me. Check out this article.
That having been noted, personally, I’d still wait for the first blow to start (if possible). With a good lawyer or a really dumb jury almost anything can happen!
Ah yes, that’s a little clearer. There was a recent case where a bloke was jailed after beating a burglar with a bat, which caused a fair bit of outrage over here. I blogged about it after he was jailed
http://epicmartialarts.wordpress.com/2009/12/24/self-defence-or-assault/
and then when he was released on appeal
http://epicmartialarts.wordpress.com/2009/12/24/self-defence-or-assault/
Love your post. Please webcast the cage match so we can see which costume you are wearing.
Like your post. There is always someone that gets a little too combative about comments. However, it makes for good blogging. People love the fight and love to talk about it.
The comment about MMA guys lacking the respect is an issue. I think it is because they have so much energy but have not had martial art value training, which is in most traditional styles. They lack the discipline to control their minds before they speak. That is hard for anyone.
Serpent – I could be a YouTube phenom! I just need to find a shiny gold thong…
Pat – Not all MMA-types (even UFC) are bad. I’ve seen the Tito Ortiz vs. Forrest Griffin bouts and these guy show a lot of respect.
Overall though I think you are correct.
Hi,
Awesome Vid…
Hmm it’s not true that brazilian ju jit su sucks… It rocks…. It’s very helpful self-defense technique..
Anyways i do agree with Bob… One needs to take extra care before practising MMA !!
Caroline – It’s all a matter of perspective and mostly realizing that what may work in sport, may not work in the street.
Bob,
BJJ is way too negative and slow for a row on the cobbles. Lying on your back is a good idea if a pretty naked bird wants to climb on top, but it ain’t so clever in a street fight.
ITT: Butthurt TMA guys trying to hold on to a past before BJJ and MMA where they were able to fool people into thinking what they practiced was viable in the least.
Fact is Sport Styles follow the scientific process
* Ask a Question(Does this work)
* Do Background Research (Have people tried this before)
* Construct a Hypothesis (How this will it work, how will I set it up)
* Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment in a controlled environment (MMA/BJJ/Muay Thai/Boxing/Wrestling match)
* Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion(Did it work or did you get you@$$ handed to you when you tried it)
* Communicate Your Results (Teach it, or don’t)
Problem with TMA’s is there is no experiment to test their techniques through an experiment because they are “le deadly” Its all theory craft.
People once theorized the earth was flat and at the center of the universe. Or that mankind was created in some magic garden 6000 years ago. They were proven wrong too.
Hi Jo,
Did you even read my comments?
Anyhow, thanks for responding.
hello my friend, dont worry for the angry e mails they may be of bjj practitionars ok but you have some serious knowledge of fighting not martial art because on street all arts compose to one fighting for survuval.
what if i tried judo and bjj and on steet thers 4 on 1 on me and i chok hold one of them and other 3 killed me it happens daily that trying to making one of them to ground many have severly wounded,handicapped or now have a late attached to their name you are absolutely right my friend at least i got one who is of my mentality nice to find you my friend, please keep in touch.
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I fully agree with your premise (the ground is not where you want to be in a street fight so a predominantly ground art is not a good first choice), however with such an inflammatory title you could expect a vicious rant or two. Of course it’s very true and even common sense to anybody with half a brain and some experience in the MA and/or real fights spending time on the ground is very dangerous and could get you killed or seriously injured. Ring sports do not equal reality and MMA, while very good 1-on-1 and very useful to develop certain attributes, isn’t the pinnacle of martial arts or the proving ground for effectiveness in all situations. Of course the UFC, Pride and MMA-propaganda has poisoned people’s minds and it’s a fact most people just aren’t capable of rational thinking (logically sound inference, weighing pro’s and con’s, considering alternatives, detaching personal feelings from the matter…) and people who train these ring or competition arts will always stand up for them and protect their own ego (I’m a great fighter because I practice the greatest fighting art ever made) in the process. I hope that BJJ-practioner insulting you will never have to find out just how wrong he is and it’s too bad his teacher didn’t insist on manners & decorum, something that should be at the heart of the martial arts. Perhaps this video featering the renowned Erik Paulson (one of the most effective ground submissions artists out there and a great teacher) will change his mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lHwLiNaQfY
Pride before the fall and it’s a fact all arts are valuable as long as they’re taught and practiced in the proper manner, however it’s also true certain arts are just better at certain aspects of fighting than others (hence the need for cross-training): BJJ is great for the ground, boxing is great for medium range, kali shines at weaponry, judo is great for throwing, tai-chi is great for relaxation and breathing… One of the great dichtonomies in the martial arts is sports vs street application: what is great and effective for one category is worthless or dangerous in the other and vice versa. I don’t get how you can discount practical experience by people who work(ed) in a very dangerous environment and prison is about as dangerous as you can get… Especially when you’re ranting totally off-topic like that jo bob guy: it’s been proven over and over again kicks to the balls, eye-gouges, hits to the neck… work so your comment about ‘scientific discovery’ is total bullshit. Try some thinking of your own before regurgitating other’s arguments which have been refuted many times before.
About the video featering the fight in the restaurant: I don’t know whether or not the BJJ’er would be charged since I’m not a lawyer and a lot depends on the specific laws in the county/state but the fat guy did come at him in a threatening manner so I’d put my money on the SD-claim holding water. In any case the BJJ’er would have been in serious trouble if the attacker had some friends with him or a weapon hidden somewhere: he won sure but if someone came up to him and started kicking him in the back or the fat guy pulled a knife and started pumping him full of holes he would have lost badly, and more than his pride (kicks to a downed opponent: another staple of traditional, combative arts that must be perfectly useless in reality because they’re forbidden in MMA-competitions). Perhaps a good test to conduct before your ‘cage-match’: I’d suggest the challenger to lie flat on the ground and you kick him in the back of the head, after that (which will be harmless/ineffective since it’s not in MMA) he can shoot and take you down.
You have an interesting blog, mr. Patterson and I like your thinking.
At the very least I AM full of shit.
But you are right: the street has weapons and you don’t want to be tied up (standing or ground) with one guy while his buddy sticks you!
Hey Bob! Found your article while idly web browsing. I just started taking BJJ lessons last week, and while I’m not exactly a go-to expert on it, I feel qualified enough to state the following: BJJ just *might* have sucked for that situation.
The original topic was never about BJJ’s status as a self-defense system. What it *was* about, was whether it was appropriate to resort to it in all situations. If taking a man to the ground and placing him in a kimura gets you successfully sued in a court of law, has a criminal label attatched to your name, and affects your ability to find work as a result, then yes, BJJ *DOES* suck. As a new student to the game, I would like to thank you Bob, for opening my eyes up to a situation I may never have even considered before. Blindly rushing into something without using your head can ruin your life as easily as anything else.
One last thought: Before Roy continues his quest to destroy you in the octogon, I suggest he settles the score with his old rival. A sinister foe that surely must have dogged him all his life: Reading comprehension.
Dave,
First thanks for posting! Second, your last paragraph made me laugh out loud!
Of course BJJ is extremely limited in the real world. the kids who may think it rocks are those limited to the sheltered world of MMA. ok if the grond in the real world was a friendly mat, and everyone wore gloves, and would not strike to the throat, temple, or other vulnerable spots, then maybe BJJ would have more significance. and all of their BS of “ground game”, take fight to the ground. well fights either end up with some being knocked out to the ground, or the ground itself knocking someone out. and if they wnat to fight on the ground from guard – fine. punch out their throat, or bash their skull on their precious “ground”. sorry but MMA and BJJ is making kids today very unprepared for real world f=defense situations.
also- Great post by Zara…yes the advent of MMA has “poisened peoples minds”. while its practitioners are finely tuned athletes and would have no problem defending themselves in a real world situation – it is the kids who learn MMA as self defense who are in trouble. what is happening to the real martial arts?!! and BJJ is the height of the blame. also annoying is MMA claim over boxing because they put an overweight, washed up, mediocre fighter (Toney) against an MMA fighter (Couture). you think RC would have stood a chance against Tyson in his prime (boxin or UFC), or Bruce LEE?!! even Ed Parker,? (a REAL martial arts practitioner) BJJ has its uses as an auxiliary style in self defense if the situation calls for it – thats it. but because of its predominance in the grappler friendly world of MMA, they think it is the end all. its not. and to think otherwise could be very painful
Hi Steve,
Thanks for dropping by!
For sure going to the ground on the street is a calculated risk!
the same way we thank the gracie family for the ufc tournament, I guess we can thank them for hilarious scenes like this one….
hahahaha
a couple of thoughts:
1- the guy eating the cheeseburger clearly has big mental problems. when a person gets mad you don’t need to make fun of him or try to make him madder with ridiculous comments, that will only make things worse!!! you need to try to calm things down and solve the matter peacefully.
I guess his bjj teacher didn’t teach him that.
2- the guy was trying to make some lock to the other guy’s arm.
what was he expecting, the other guy to tap him at some point and say “I surrender”???
he wanted to break his arm? to leave him unconcious?
the bad thing about bjj is that in order to stop a fight you will need to cause some serious damage that will bring you problems probably for the rest of your life (if you brake an arm, choke a guy for a long time, brake a leg, etc).
I tend to find that you cannot convince most (nearly all that I’ve met, anyway) BJJ practitioners that their art is not a good standalone self defense art or that going to the ground is a bad idea outside of a competition or, perhaps, a soft beach or lawn. They will immediately start countering with MMA examples (don’t get me wrong–I’m a big fan of MMA) or talking about how the Gracies went around picking street fights with people (which shows horrible moral character more than anything, in my opinion), and they aren’t willing to understand that those “deadly” techniques they make fun of (eye gouging, striking the throat, striking the base of the skull, etc.) actually do have a long history of working just fine so even though we don’t apply them in competition we know they work. I completely respect the ability of BJJ practitioners to grapple, and I believe that it has value in that it can give you the skills you need to fight on the ground if it goes there so that you can get back to your feet, but it is not the be-all-end-all of self defense.
Hi Noah,
Thanks for weighing in. Yes, I agree. I’ve learned some supplemental BJJ at my current school and certainly respect it. However, just like any martial art, it too has gaps. It was born in a sport environment which can lead to challenges. See this post:
http://strikingthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/military-self-defense-vs-mma/
Yeah keep in mind it’s not all about being able to fight off your back. Do you people really think we are stupid enough to believe being on your back underneath someone is a good thing?
BJJ/wrestling training is often about getting to a BETTER position, i.e. side-control, back control, full mount. All of which would work perfectly fine “on the street”, or for holding someone down and making a citizen’s arrest, or choking them, etc.
Most ordinary people don’t know how to defend themselves on the ground. Why wouldn’t these things work on the street? Punching people in the face, liver or solar plexus will work; boxing is a ring sport with rules, so I guess you can go up to Tyson and beat him on the street too.
How are you going to gouge eyes if a good wrestler takes you down and isolates your arms? (see Lesnar vs Mir II)
TBH, I think Judo, Boxing and Wrestling are probably the best things for the street. IMO. But it’s not like BJJ would be a horrible choice.
Thanks for the comments, Patrick.
The short of it for me is this: Grappling when dealing with multiple opponents on the street is problematic. Esp. if one of the opponents has a knife or other weapon. Holding someone for a citizens arrest will do you little good if his pal sticks you in the back with a knife. That having been said I do think that knowing some grappling in a street context is a good thing but you had also better know some stand up striking and escape.
Oh yeah. Of course. It’s no good against multiple opponents, but what is?
Ideally, I would just obtain a good position, pound on him with some elbow strikes, and just leave. If he had a knife or weapon, I would get rather get the hell away.
Nice – I was looking up some information regarding bjj because I was considering having my daughters start learning it as a way of self defense. I’m still not sure if it is the right way to go for them, however, I wanted to say “thanks” for including the “Cheeseburger Shake Down”. My daughter and I thought the “cheeseburger nut” got what he deserved. Yaay for the bjj guy.
If you take the BJJ route make sure the school teaches stand up striking too. For self-defense you need a mixture of striking and grappling. If you are looking for self-defense and a good workout you might look around for a decent krav maga school.
Even 1 -1 I wouldn’t fancy a BJJ practitioners chances against someone with a knife or baton etc. Its good at what it does but it is just a sport. I used to fight competitively in freestyle kickboxing. You had rules and I was always concious of the fact that you couldn’t strike to the back, groin, eyes etc. You also can’t do strangles and chokes. Which in a street situation you may need to give you that edge.
Personally I do traditional Jujitsu now and find it is very effective. We do not have competitions as you encourage rules. We have no rules. We teach self defence. We are taught to try and resolve a situation calmly and responsibly. If you can’t talk your way out of it then you do what you have to do to stop the threat even if it means using a weapon, biting, scratching or gouging. You have to defend yourself. We are taught in a very traditional way with lots of respect for each other and ourselves and we train in a full contact environment trying to make it as real as possible. With the attacker attacking as if real; Then when defending we use control so as not to cause serious injury or kill.
We encompass, Throwing, kicking, punching, elbowing, strangles, chokes, ground fighting and kick boxing. These are are tested from various attacks and against many attackers with various weapons defence and using certain practical weapons also. We can strike to anywhere on the body that is effective and stop the attacker quickly.
This is the most complete martial art I have studied and I have studied a few but this still doesn’t make me indestructable but hopefully it will give me enough to be able to defend myself and get out of trouble if need be.
We seem to have a lot of MMA\BJJ practitioners that have been training for a couple of years and know all there is to know about Martial Arts. What they know is how to roll on the floor and make someone tap out. There is just very little respect from these guys. In all the years I have done MA I have never seen such disrespect coming from one MA before. But what we do seem to lack are the BJJ guys that have come unstuck in a real life situation coming forward to let us know what really happens against a guy with a knife.
BJJ\MMA seem to favour the ground and pound technique which is great one on one and you’re fast enough. You do that with someone with a knife you will be wearing that blade between your shoulder blades.
We practice knife defence every session occasionally doing live drills ie using a real knife. Even with this training I would still rather run and live to tell the tale.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the feedback. You might find Wim’s post interesting.
http://www.wimsblog.com/2012/01/why-the-untrained-fighter-kicks-your-highly-trained-butt-part-two/
Hey everyone
good discussion … got me reading
For my 2 cents …. I’m an old fella … 40 yrs young …short, over weight, unfit, very far from flexible and have been seriously considering martial arts training to get fit, lose weight increase my flexibility and just fell feel good … dam .. in know .. cant do anything about the short or the 40 yrs bit.
I’ve been doing my research and decided to start with Wing Chun at the academy in Sydney CBD … I’ve had I’ve had 6 lessons so far … and love it… people there are awesome. I have learned a lot in the short space I time and everything .. even though very basic starter level stuff I can see it being very effective in self defense…
I have also gone and sat in a BJJ class with Graciesydney and wow .. the place was pumping … there were lots of huge MMA looking blokes and in the previous class a couple of young kids and a couple of ladies …. one lady had a much bigger guy in a choke hold of some sort and the guy was tapping out … very impressed.
Conclusion … I’ve decided to do both. One day a week for each (got a 4 kids n work so time is a factor) but am not doing it smash people brains in or to break arms, just to get fit a learn martial arts which I have loved (on the screen) all my life ,… just been too lazy to get off my ass.
Just want to add ,,, I have not been any any fights since the old school days and don’t see me getting in one any time soon… those who get into a lot of fights generally go looking for them … and if someone picks one with you … then usually one can talk your way out .. or u know … run like hell…
On the other scale …if I was to ever get robbed, mugged … or anything like that .. i would hope I could defend myself or my family with my newly found sport if the situation should arise.
Just looking at those BJJ guys … it clearly can be very effective in street combat.
So Sorry BOB .. you had some good comments but I recon if the same guys that start kicking when the fight goes to the ground, will also jump in if you were to be beating on their friend standing up. But if it was one on one then I cant see why the the BJJ guy couldn’t end it, even without breaking bones.
If you can hold someone in a very painful lock for a long period of time guaranteed when you let go the guy will get up and walk away.
L8r everyone
Christ, more of this. Listen, anyone that actually trains how to “fight” knows there are more than one phase of combat; i.e., stand up, clinch, and ground. If you lack skills in any one of these areas, you’re not a complete fighter. Simple as that. That means Boxing/Muy Thai, Judo/Wrestling, and BJJ. The only singular martial art that I’m aware of that teaches all three is Combat Sambo. Muy Thai encompasses two of these facets, standing and clinch. Judo teaches clinch and ground. BJJ also teaches clinch and ground. Combining these separate elements is the only way to learn how to “fight” effectively. Take any competent striker, put them on their back, and their 20 plus years of training goes out the window pretty quick. I’d rather be a well versed grappler than striker, because if you’re fighting at range, you have the chance to disengage your opponent and escape. That option is only removed when fighting in a clinch or ground situation. If people choose to only study one aspect of fighting, it should be Judo, BJJ, or Sambo, as that’s true worst case scenario training. And isn’t that why one trains to fight anyway?
The other problem with striking martial arts is that they’re unpredictable. It’s easy to assume that when you punch someone in the face/neck/groin, that they’ll get instantly knocked out/incapacitated. In reality is that’s simply not true. The human hand was not built for punching. There’s 22 small bones in the human hand and wrist, all of which have a tendency to break when you punch someone in the head. Try calling 911 with a broken hand, it’s not easy. Now try having your carotid arteries cut off for 20 seconds or more. The biggest, baddest, drugged up SOB you’ll ever meet will be sleeping like a baby. Why? Because the human brain requires oxygen via blood flow to operate properly. This is medical fact, not mystical propaganda. If one gets taken down against their will, get back to your feet and create distance to disengage. If you can’t get back to your feet, choke someone out, escape and evade, and call 911.
Hi Chris,
I agree with what you said here:
“…anyone that actually trains how to “fight” knows there are more than one phase of combat; i.e., stand up, clinch, and ground. If you lack skills in any one of these areas, you’re not a complete fighter. ”
Yet you contradict yourself here:
“If people choose to only study one aspect of fighting, it should be Judo, BJJ, or Sambo, as that’s true worst case scenario training.”
Judo, BJJ, and sport Sambo generally do not teach all ranges of combat. Rather, much like striking, they specialize in one or two ranges. Also there are many arts that teach all ranges of combat — not just Combat Sambo. e.g. Jeet Kune Do, flavors of kempo, flavors of Hapkido, Krav Maga, etc.
Lastly, I will again post this link because it’s very illustrative of the point I’m trying to make:
http://www.wimsblog.com/2012/01/why-the-untrained-fighter-kicks-your-highly-trained-butt-part-two/
Bob, You seem to presume all street fights involve multiple attackers? This is not the case. I have had many altercations in the street which have been one on one. Just recently I was riding my bike through a park with my wife and got into a verbal slanging match with a crazy guy who started abusing my wife becasue (in his opinion) he didn’t have enough space to pass her. I resisted the urge, but am quite confident (using my BJJ skills) that I would have been able to take him down. He was alone. Also I would like to know your thoughts on the defence forces across the world employeeing BJJ into their hand to hand combat training. Do you disagree with this? Do you assume hand to hand combat on the battle field is always one on one? How about for women? Do you think BJJ is completely ineffective as a means of self defence for women? I find it a bit of a strectch that you champion the effectiveness of stand up striking against multiple attackers, as in my experience “sticking and moving” will help you for about oh, 5 seconds. In real life people don’t attack you one at a time. Against a group sticking and moving is quickly rendered useless as there is always more than one punch coming at you. The truth is, you simply don’t want to fight a large group of attackers, no matter whether your a grappler or a striker. It’s a lot better to get out of there.
It’s unfortunate, but blogs like these are generally written by people who tried their hand at BJJ, found it a little to hard and now have to justify their reason for quiting as “BJJ is not street effective”. We’ve had plenty of these guys come through my gym.
Bob,
What you refer to as contradiction is anything but. “I’d rather be a well versed grappler than striker, because if you’re fighting at range, you have the chance to disengage your opponent and escape.” Fighting at range is a choice, as one still has the option of retreat. The two phases of combat that we both acknowledge Judo and BJJ address, are the most likely to result against someone’s will. Therefore I stand by my statement, if people choose to only study one martial art, it should be one that addresses those phases of combat. While I don’t claim to be an expert on Jeet Kune Do, everything I’ve ever seen of it is 80 percent stand, 15 percent clinch work, and 5 percent ground work, which is generally sloppy at best. Same for Krav Maga and Kempo. And let’s really be honest, not all JKD is created equal. Same for Krav Maga, Kempo, and Hapkido. Hard sparring does exist within these arts, but in my experience that’s more the exception than the rule. I would say the exact opposite is true of most BJJ and Judo clubs.
The second issue I wish to discuss, that Part 1 of your referred link addresses, but seems conspicuously absent from your post, is the development of timing (referred to on Wim’s blog as ‘experience’, or what Matt Thornton refers to as ‘Aliveness’). Without hard sparring at 100% speed against a fully resisting opponent, it’s impossible to develop timing. Without timing all you have is a collection of techniques that may as well be useless, because the practitioner doesn’t have the ability to apply them. This is why an individual with 6 months of BJJ or Judo training is threat to individuals that have practiced dead patterns for years. Because after 6 months of daily hard sparring, the timing has been developed. This is the problem many people have with what can be referred to as TMA’s. While some of the techniques (and I stress some) may be perfectly valid, the ability to apply them against a resisting opponent has been lost. So what you’re left with is a workout routine akin to cardio-kickboxing. Which is all well and good, unless people are being duped into paying good money to learn how to fight.
Omelette –
Did you read my original post?
Related to all of this is the fact that the street or the battle field are both vastly different than sport BJJ (or sport karate, sport muai thai, sport judo, etc.). Again: For true self-defense you need an art that teaches all ranges of combat, how to deal with weapons, and multiple attackers. Black Belt Magazine recently had an article that is related to this discussion.
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/traditional-martial-arts-training/aikido/matt-larsen-teaching-the-u-s-army-how-to-fight/
Do I think BJJ sucks? Not at all. However, in my opinion, unless it’s been “street-proofed” it’s not the best system out there for street self-defense or the battle field.
Chirs,
Fair enough. I’ll go this far: I’d agree that if I had to choose between Judo or BJJ I’d take BJJ. Mainly because it teaches how to defend against a striker. Most sport judo that I’m aware of barely bothers. As for those other arts I will concede that they vary with their “balance” of ranges and techniques. Totally agree with you about hard sparring – no issue there. I mainly linked out to Wim because that post illustrates the realities of what you may be dealing with on the street. i.e. does tae kwon do, akido, BJJ, or judo teach you how to grapple with someone who has a knife? Most likely not – though, I suppose, there may be schools that have tried to “street-proof” their arts.
Bob,
I’m willing to concede that there are many issues with sport Judo. For example, many of the high level Judo black belts I have rolled with have a tendency to give up their back almost willingly as a result of the Judo rule set, which is a major flaw in my opinion.
You also make a valid point in regards to grappling against someone with a knife. I’d be willing to say that it’s rarely a good idea to get into a fight with someone that has a knife at any range. This is why, you and I both seem to agree, the best scenario against someone that may have a knife is to not engage. And if that option doesn’t exist, that’s why I carry a gun
Thanks for the discussion,
Chris
Or run like hell!
Seriously: I’d love to see some BJJ folks tackle grappling an attacker who has a weapon – create some training for this scenario. I wonder if Krav Maga or related arts cover this much?
-B
Brazilian Jiujitsu is not a solution for self defense all by its self, but it is good to have some BJJ in your self defense arsenal JUST IN CASE you DO end up on the the ground. You need some sort of ground game so you will have a better chance of disabling your attacker on the ground or getting back on your feet. It’s good to be a well rounded with your self defense skills, striking and grappling. However, since there are no rules in self defense, I will do anything to defend my family or myself, that means absolutely anything to end the threat.
Well I’d much rather learn ways to get to my feet quickly, and to practice them with 100% resistance so I can escape whatever may be happening to me on the ground. For this I need BJJ. Its an “alive” martial art. That means it has 100% sparring. Having good takedown defence and an ability to get to my feet whilst being completely pinned, is vitally important in self defence. You seem to think of BJJ as lying on your back, having someone in closed guard, trying to catch them in a submission. That’s not what BJJ is about. Your argument is based on the premise that people train one style. That’s a very outdated view point. Many people who do BJJ have backgrounds in other arts too. I think the MMA approach of dealing with striking ranges, clinch, takedown, takedown defence, ground fighting(getting back to your feet) is very helpful from a self defence view point. The fact you can train almost all these areas with 100% resistance in a sparring/sporty manner really helps pressure test the skills. As for knife defence I’d much rather have a solid base from which I can learn knife defence.
Bob,
Being a BJJ practitioner myself, i feel the need to voice my opinion (like anyone cares lol).
First of all, not all BJJ schools teach the same way, a lot of them are focused on BJJ as a sport (mostly ground techniques) but there are some schools out there that teach the way Helio Gracie envisioned it (with standup techniques such as strikes, judo throws, takedowns, and even weapon defense). In fact Helio Gracie was against BJJ as sport because he believed it corrupted his vision for BJJ to be a SELF DEFENSE art and not a sport. I believe that BJJ is one of the most effective martial arts to defend yourself with. However, this doesn’t mean that you can’t use your brain and think before attempting to tackle some random John Doe on the street.
For example, when I first started BJJ (back in the white belt days, 16 years old) I felt like I could take on anybody, at one point I got into a fight against 3 other people, and my first mistake was to take the main guy of the group to the ground, needless to say I ended up with cracked ribs from the kicks I received from the two other attackers while I was fighting the main dude that was threatening me, yes he ended up pretty bad but so did I, thankfully friends arrived and helped diffuse the situation. When I told my BJJ instructor about the event, he was very very disappointed in me, because the first thing he preaches at the academy is to use your head before using your Jiu-Jitsu. From these day (I’m now 21) I have only gotten into one altercation and came out on top, I was fighting just one guy and the fight only started when I saw no way out (even after apologizing several times)
I guess the moral of the story is, unless you are some super soldier trained to kill, if you are facing more than one opponent, be smart about it and just walk away, there is no wrestling, judo, bjj, or karate that will take care of that situation. Sure, Krav Maga might take care of this problem, but even then the odds are stacked against you (you can’t train Krav Maga with resistance, because you won’t have training partners). Unless your family is in danger, resort to walking away and live to fight another day. Now if you are family is being attacked, then at that point you must use every possible move in your arsenal to defend them, whatever that might be, as long you can keep your family safe.
1 vs Many = The odds say you’ll lose every time (in my experience)
1 vs 1 = IN MY OPINION, a BJJ practitioner will have the advantage (but nothing is for sure!)
Above all, avoid confrontations as much as possible, and if you are really that worried about being attacked by multiple opponents, by a handgun and get a permit.
BJJ is a great self defense art, because the one day you really need it, you’ll have it at your disposal.
Just my .2 cents.
Jose
Thanks for weighing in!
I think there are several arts that are good for civilian self-defense and BJJ is one of them. I also totally agree when you say one should be smart and try to avoid altercations — esp. on the street if you are outnumbered.
Good day sir. Allow me to share some thoughts on this subject. I think BJJ has some self defense value but by itself you won’t be invincible on the “streetz” by any means. Modern Army Combatives is based off of BJJ. I found it to be very effective in restraining PUCS while I was deployed to Iraq. Now after the Army while in college I got into a fight which made me realize that I needed to cross train more lol. I came home one night to find my roommate raping an unconscious coed. Naturally a brawl ensued. Despite being outweighed I was able to take my roomy down and winded up in his guard. I passed to half guard and was yelling for help. Well he bashed the back of my head in with a huge can of Lysol that had fallen to the ground during the struggle. I got hit 3 times with said can, disarmed him, and dislocated his elbow with a kimura. I ended up getting 2 staples to close the wound and we both got arrested. After everything got sorted out my charges were dropped, he is still incarcerated till this day. Today I am a corrections officer down here in Puerto Rico. I have seen some scary things working in a prison. In my experienced opinion there is no # 1 supreme martial art. You need to mix your martial arts, and I don’t mean UFC style. Study a striking art so you can “stick n move”, a wrestling based grappling art like Judo or BJJ in case you have to grapple with an inmate. And lastly study a weapons based art like Kali or Escrima in case you have to disarm someone. BJJ is a great skillset to have but I need more in my line of work. Nothing trumps a concealed weapons permit for self defense on the “deadly streetz”. Personally I have military and law enforcement experience a purple belt in BJJ and 2 years of Kali. None of that compares with the fact that I am allowed to carry a pistol with me wherever I go! Also I am a big supporter of a strength and conditioning program accompanying any kind of martial arts training. You fight how you train so train hard.
I definitely agree that mixing is a good thing!