My post on Aikido vs. boxing keeps ranking as a top post. The problem is that it’s really not a very good post. Since I’ve been studying Chin Na which parallels Aikido in some ways, I thought I was ready to take another stab at it so here goes! I’m hoping that this one at least bumps pt. 1 from its popular spot.
First up I found a video that demonstrates an Aikido defense to a hook punch. The part of this demonstration that seems plausible to me is the blending deflection — this I can see work in a fluid situation. However, trying for that wrist grab at full speed (especially when the attacker’s right hand is probably on its way to your head!) could prove challenging in my opinion.
In our Chin Na curriculum we are taught that Chin Na works best against stand-up grappling attacks. It also has limited application on the ground — especially if you can get hold of a finger and snap it! Interestingly we practice several techniques off a live punch. However, almost every time we do this exercise we are cautioned that it is very difficult to apply Chin Na to a fast-moving striker (half the reason we practice on a puncher is to improve our dexterity). In fact we are taught that if our Chin Na is overwhelmed we need to fall back on Kung Fu or any other martial art that we know.
In our curriculum, dealing with a puncher goes something like this:
- Step to the outside of their center line (outside of the punch)
- Pivot in so you end up on their side
- While you do points 1&2 you are usually attempting some sort of sticking parry as you follow the punch in at an angle
- If you botch the stick which leads to Chin Na you’ve still parried/evaded the punch
- You also end up on their side which means they have to punch across their body with their free hand
- If all else fails you fall back on punching and kicking
All I know is that based on our drills it’s very challenging to get Chin Na to work against a fast moving striker. Us newbies probably have a 1 in 5 success rate while Sifu probably has a 1 in 3 chance at making it work. Personally, I still think you’re better matching your striking skills against a striker or just grapple if you are skilled at that. Our Chin Na does have take-downs but not until the advanced level. So it’s four to five years before you start learning that material which is no help at all in the early stages.
While I was perusing videos for this post I noticed that some folks commented that their Aikido school does not teach much realistic punch defense. Since I’m not an Aikido practitioner I have no idea if this is true or not. A long time ago I took boxing lessons in a dojo that offered Aikido. I don’t recall seeing much punch defense being taught but I only saw a handful of classes so I’m probably not a good source of information. Anyhow, I was able to find a series of videos that tries to apply Aikido as a defense against boxing techniques. If anything these are certainly educational.
Excerpt from the first video:
It’s very difficult to time Aikido techniques off of a boxer, so we thought this would be a fun way to get some practice in.
This first video starts with evasion, transitions to arm control, and closes with application of technique.
The second video adds MMA gloves to the Aikido practitioner so he can attempt short strikes.
The third video focuses on dealing with a jab/hook combination.
Positives:
- Some of the evasions and blending deflections seem very plausible
- Some of the Aikido throws seem to work pretty good (probably even better on hard pavement)
Uncertain:
- Turning your back on a good puncher is probably not a good idea
- The locks seem to work at a success rate that’s similar to what I see in Chin Na — ergo I agree that it’s hard to time these type of locks off a fast puncher
Negatives:
- I not impressed with the Aikido strikes — seems to me they are feeble at best and I doubt they’d be very effective against someone who can take a punch.
- The Aikido guy seems to take an awful lot of punches in the clinch. Sometimes he gets his technique to work before taking shots but most of the time he takes a lot of hits.
So that’s my take! What’s yours?
-BCP
A couple of thoughts.
You’re right about the success rate, but let’s apply that thinking to punching, too. From this video it’s pretty poor. Most of the punches thrown don’t land. Many of the punches from a clinch have poor power and are not to the most vulnerable areas. Fights against a competent, aware opponent, e.g., training matches and sessions are going to be like that. Predatory assaults, maybe not so much.
That said, I think the aikido side clinches too much. A clean technique should look like the one at 2:04 in the second video. In and down. You won’t always get those, but what you don’t want is to get stuck in a clinch using strength on strength, trying to force something. It’s really hard to do this when someone is trying to punch you, it’s quite normal to get fixated. Which is why you have to practice it.
You do make a very good point about “flipping the script”. Also, I wonder how my Chin Na curriculum would fair against a boxer? We’ve never practiced it like these Aikido guys did. I almost think we’d do worse unless we relied on other training (kung fu, other martial arts training). Aikido seems to emphasize evasion so I’m suspecting a pure Chin Na person with no other martial arts training would fare worse than someone that’s only studied Aikido.
Bob,
We have actually done something very similar to this in our own Aikido dojo (in our advanced class so we aren’t clocking new students) and a couple of things jumped out at me from watching the video (OK watching most of the first two).
In all of the scenes I saw the Nage is backing up almost all the time.
Aikido (at least the school I practice) requires you to move in and take balance in order to really be effective.
so for example when we work on the jab-hook combo we don’t wait for the second punch. when the first punch gets thrown we move in and take balance (not even thinking about a joint lock) rather than trying to cover up from it
Not easy to do in a situation like this (I should know I have the same issue a lot of the time).
Also it seems that the focus is on the joint lock whereas taking balance first would be more effective (hard to throw a second or third punch if you can’t stand up all the way).
I am not saying any of this is easy to do, but based on what we have worked on it is effective.
My initial reaction was that a lot of this looked more like wrestling vs boxing than Aikido vs boxing (having trained in both wrestling and Aikido).
As for the weak strikes, having been hit by my Sensei up close what seems to be a feeble strike can actually contain a lot of power, especially if you are off balance and the strike is delivered as you are falling to the ground with mind and body coordinated.
thanks for the post.
Thanks for the insight Doug!
After posting that and heading to work I started to think about the short strikes I learned in tae kwon do and am learning in kung fu. I may be way off on my initial comment.
From my experiance, it’s almost impossible to get a lock on a resisting opponent unless you strike him first to loosten him up.
-Here’s a hundred degree sweat-fest Aikido technique I learned a long time ago. The palm slap I use would really hit hard in reality. I still have to work on introducing more motion, a big help…
OOPs…
Here’s the link to my technique:
I like the idea of testing the Aiki stuff out in a semi-free fighting environment. As you say the strikes aren’t up to much but it’s a good opportunity to see what works well and what requires a little too much effort.
Clearly, they are not strikers, so to improve these drills they will need to improve their striking.
I don’t see too much of a problem taking a few in the body, it’s ebtter than the head. Besides if you tie the attacker up he can’t get much into those strikes.
If you guys really want to find out if aikido or chin-na works against a boxer, go pick a fight with one or as a boxer to oblige a real nhb challenge match. That is how the military test the effectiveness of their combat systems, as well as the way many of the ancient martial artists tested theirs. It looked to me like both men in this video were smiling the entire time and it was pretty obvious that neither one where really trying to land any strikes. THe only time a martial artist is supposed to use his art is to protect himself and/or others. That being said, it is vital to make sure that everything in your arsenal is effective in the right situation.
Matt –
Thanks for the feedback!
In our lineage of chin na it’s pretty much cannon that chin na is used in stand-up grappling; or, if an opportunity presents itself on the ground. It’s also stressed that chin na is not your first choice against a striker. So, at least as far as my lineage is concerned, we already know that answer to the boxing question.
We mostly practice against punches as an exercise in dexterity.
Pingback: “Aikido vs. Boxing pt. II,” by Bob Patterson
I’m really stupid!
And i thought that aikido was not made to fight.
After all there are thousand of people trying to figure out to make a 4×4 fast as a F1.
In a bad situacion:
Plan A – Run like hell!
Plan B – Cry like a little girl and scream (they would have the courage to beat such a sissy.
Plan C – If every else fails… just unleash hell and catch them by surprise.
Always remeber! some nuts haven’t got shell
hugs
nuno (portugal)
nunoku – I think what you are saying is that the philosophy of Aikido calls you to avoid physical confrontations altogether.
If that fails and you are attacked I suppose you have four options:
1. Use your Aikido
2. Use some other martial art
3. Use your plan
4. Take one for the team and get beat up
Some nuts also have salt.
I’ve taken a look at video 2 and 3 and I kept in mind 2 things:
1. In a “real” fight, all parties are going to be off balanced fighters – ie you’re not going to be centered.
2. you’re also not going to hit for points, people are usually going to hit to hurt the other person out in the street.
I have to agree though that it is hard to picture myself as an Aikidoist in a real “street” situation. The aggressors would be out to get u, your wallet, and/or the people who you care about probably aren’t thinking of harmony etc.
With that said – my sense is that most people will be attacking you off centered – as demonstrated in the boxing/aikido vids that you showed. I have to say though they were realistic in showing the general movement that would be happening out in the street – a lot of shifting feet and people being “brought out of their center”. I haven’t tried anything like this. However I have been taught Aikido which has been used by police to take down and restrain suspects – the “security” Aikido.
Hope that was clear. By the way I have a question:
How do you get people who use other blog systems (eblogger, livejournal, etc.) to be on your blogroll? I’ve been trying to find that out but I can’t see to find a way. Thanks!
AA – Thanks for the feedback! To answer your question: just ask! I have added you to my blogroll and my Google feeds!
So how do you add people to your blogroll that are NOT using wordpress?
nice post – the real situation on the street would be without the rules though…
MMA Judo – on that we both agree!
I have been practicing Aikido, Aiki Jujutsu, Aiki Budo, & Aikibujutsu. A friend of mine is a 2nd degree black belt. He got beat up once because he couldnt commit to a strike. He’s a Karate “expert.” In practices as far back as I remember, I always practiced Aikido full force. A good Aikidoka can actually perform the techniques easily no matter how hard the person resists. a great Aikidoka can pin you to a concrete floor in 3 seconds without causing you the least bit of discomfort. the principles of taking the opponent’s balance are done quickly-its not a matter of getting things broken, you simply take Uke’s (or your assailant’s) balance. the reason so many techniques are taught is so that you can just apply natural movements to defend yourself. I would also agree with former comments that in the videos shown the two men were, at best, amateur Aikidoka. I have actually had to defend myself in real situations from multiple attackers, & I walked away without a scratch. Aikido is an art of peace not MA
7th D – it’s always hard to judge these videos. Honestly, you could take a black belt and show him doing a 10 second clip but will that capture what he truly knows?
In response to what 7th Dan said:
No – especially in an age where video can be doctored and edited – ANY video should only be taken as two cents. You can only experience how “good” a master by being on the receiving end of his punches (or throws or whatever).
AA – Exactly!
Interesting post Bob. What I found most insightful is your comment about being cautioned about the difficulty of applying certain methods against a fast striker. As I always tell my coaching clients in martial arts, WHAT you do matters much less than whether you UNDERSTAND what you do.
Nothing ‘works’ objectively – for example, most people would agree that a basic punch like a cross ‘works’, but does that mean that I could land one on Joe Calzaghe? No. Skill LEVEL and many other factors are more important then the specific skill used. I know that personally, I’ve successfully used many skills that I thought were pretty silly until I had occasion to use them and they saved my neck. Nice to see someone considering these ‘one style versus another’ issues in a balanced way for a change!
Third video of the Aikido/Boxing dudes: easy to say from the sidelines, but at 2:24, the guy should’ve changed tactics and ducked under his armpit, thus doing a sankyo — kinda like this — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHL0KaNGgfQ
The hard part, it seems to me, is that a lot (most?) Aikido throws are based on grabbing the other person’s wrist — and some of them involve putting your thumb on the back of the other person’s hand, and moving their hand and fingertips towards the inside of their forearm. When the opponent is wearing boxing gloves, it makes all of those waaaay harder — thus really limiting what you can do.
(Is that the Aikido kryptonite: wearing bulky gloves?)
–GG
Yeah, I see what you mean about limited application to a fast striker (and lots of boxers are pretty fast !) It’s also a bit of a worry that he leaves himself open to a lot of body punches (and knees if the opponent were using Muay Thai). I think you would need some other disciplines to fall back on.
I really want to try aikido some day. It’s funny but I know more than one high dan who ends up pursuing aikido as a second dan. I do think it has much to offer; but, like any martial art, it also has limits.
for a boxer he sure has horrible footwork ..
Hey there all,
I practiced aikido for about 2 or 3 years, made accelerated progress in the belts and really loved it. Then I subsequently quit when I began to question if it has any real world application. In my experience none of the techniques are very effective. Right out of the aikido school I began to train at a local boxing gym, I was there for a year and earned my pass book.
In my experience the only thing that aikido taught me was good balance and some interesting mobility, some of which I was able to carry into the ring into a more realistic training situation. Any of the boxers who had been at my little gym for even a few months at the least knew more about self defense and would have been more effective than any of the aikido practitioners I worked with. All of the basic self defense things are learned more effectively in boxing, things like breathing, avoiding a punch, avoiding any attack for that matter. I loved aikido for its choreography, but one only has to look at youtube videos of the great Willy Pep to see much of the same kinds of blending and redirection found in aikido, in addition to an amazing array of other skills.
I believe that the founder’s aikido was probably really effective simply because he was also an expert in several other very combative arts. I imagine that the aikido which comes from that lineage is probably still more effective than most of what is learned today here in the states, and that it probably has a good deal more subtlety and perhaps even aggressiveness.
Just my two and a half cents.
Hi Adam,
You found a old post so I’m not sure if anyone will respond. The last martial art before my extended break that I dabbled in was aikido. Personal opinion but I think you’d have to be a high dan to tease out the effective techniques. (and that is not meant as a slight to the aikido folks — the lessons where dreadfully hard so you have my respect!)
I shall quote you:
My opinion too. We had one junior black belt who also studied judo. He was head and shoulders above the rest when it came to randori.
-B